alexeth on May 11, 2010, 07:10 pm
We'd discussed some time ago (Alex & I via email) the usefulness of more example sheets. The standard example on the original page was an older design. Some submissions of a newer design, with unusual plays or showing other work-arounds might be useful for getting ideas on using the sheets. I'd be happy to scan some of mine up, if there were others interested in such a tangible exhange of graphic ideas.
Alex Reisner on May 12, 2010, 10:15 pm
Thanks for reminding me about this. I agree that it would be great for us to be able to share our scorecards so I've added an image upload field to the discussion post form. I'm looking forward to seeing what everyone is doing!
alexeth on May 26, 2010, 04:53 pm
2nd page of same game
= moving to "home" sheet =
- box 1 was a single off 2B into center who threw to short who muffed the catch missing an out on batters advance on the play. I stuck that "E" over the "6" to note that. Typically I write the numbers first, and then tack on the "E" if applicable after I convince myself it's appropriate (usually moments).
- Box 10 and 46 show how I used an in-line auxiliary box to keep it near the batter rather than the off-grid one.
- I sometimes note something special about a swing. Home boxes 18 & 23 show "b" that it was a bunt attempt (& Visitors 2 & 32). box 30 has a check-mark that it was a checked-swing that was called a swinging strike.
- i use slash-marks on the boxes to mark pitching changes. I find it easier to pull pitcher data during the game this way and it's a error-check redundency to the in/out boxes in pitcher area.
Alex Reisner on May 27, 2010, 06:27 pm
This is great, perfect for discussion. Thanks.
On the AWAY scorecard:
Box 1: Good question about the FLE3. I never formalized this but I like where you have it. The diamond portion of the box is supposed to hold everything that would be on the first line of a Project Scoresheet scorecard, so that seems like the right place, though I could imagine a good argument for having it below the diamond as well.
Box 5: Sounds like a pickoff (PO13)...or am I missing something?
Box 17: This is a tricky one. I don't think you can award a batter an extra base by a fielder's choice--it's just for reaching first. Either it's a single, meaning the batter would have reached base even with a throw from the third baseman, or a fielder's choice, meaning the third baseman could have put out the batter but chose to do something else. Either way, I think you just say that the batter went to 2B on the throw home (B-2 (THH)).
On the HOME scorecard:
I love your use of slashes to indicate pitching changes. Really nice. As you say: quicker to read and provides some redundancy for catching mistakes.
alexeth on May 27, 2010, 07:09 pm
Re: box 5: the only weird thing is it's on the same play. He walked, and was tagged out on the 1-3.
Now it seems 10.07(h)2 makes "CS" seem okay, but it does use the words "picked off" for any advance (even if unintentional after a walk with a live ball). 7.08(c) supports the legality of the out. Since his at-bat is over (he's now a runner) PO makes sense too. But then it seems to belong in his box, I'd want to move the PO to the next box as an event during next at-bat prior to a pitch. That's probably a new question, when are you really out of the one box and into the next for weird stuff like this. Another example that I usually do put into the next box is a delayed steal after reaching first but before a pitch or a blown throw from the catcher to pitcher after the runner is on first after a walk. I think I charged one of those as an E2 on the advance in the new box.
re: Box 17 I think I use "FC" in the non-batter context because of things like 10.06(b) which describes this situation. He singled (I don't think they could've gotten him out, so not a FC on the hitter) and then he went to 2nd on the throw (precisely as you said). Thanks for the notation suggestion.
On that, is there a standard for how an advance is accounted for? IT's "on the throw" or "TH" for action after the hit and "FC" for fielder's choices on the contact? There's just a lot of possibilities for those non-error throwing-around craziness in little leauge (and plenty of E's too...in fact just last night... but I'll stop there ;-) ).
This is good disucssion. I still feel like a novice, even though I'm so geeked out for this stuff that other people think I'm an expert.
Alex Reisner on May 27, 2010, 10:17 pm
This _is_ a good discussion. Thanks again for asking about uploading scorecard images.
Box 5: Ah, sorry, I missed that. If it's one play doesn't that just mean W.BX2(13)? He was thrown out trying to go to second base on a walk. It's not something you hear often but it seems legitimate (I've seen batters make it successfully on distracted pitchers) and more accurate than CS or PO, which has to happen during the next batter's plate appearance (and therefore at-bat box).
Box 17: Yes, I believe fielder's choice is just for a batter becoming a runner (reaching 1B) and what the batter gets "credit" for instead of a hit. After that, all runners advance in non-error situations "on the throw" to another base. And yeah, this is huge in little league.
Believe me, I feel like a novice too. Baseball is complicated.
on June 17, 2010, 09:29 pm
I like the idea of uploading images and will look for some good ones. I had time right now to follow the box 5 discussion.
Just off of what was described I would lean towards Pick Off or Out Advancing. It sounds like an instance of the b/r being careless in his lead off, in which case it is not an attempt to gain 2nd and it was not stated that he made any movement toward 2nd on the play, so it can not be CS. I think the difference then is if him being off the bag was beginning his lead off or a careless rounding of 1st.
The other thing that might be important in the scoring is when/why the P had already thrown the ball to 1B...was it before the b/r reached 1st on the walk?
alexeth on June 18, 2010, 12:52 pm
Runner reached on walk. Pitcher threw to first immediately during walk (this team did this routinely which I only started to notice after this play this game). I doubt runner realized ball was at first. He rounded first (I think they're trained that way - to look for blown throw to the pitcher) and 1B tagged him out. A sneaky way to get an out, but leaving me with the puzzle what to call it. I like Alex's suggestion, as it'd be similar to trying to extend a single into a double unsuccessfully. Deserves a note probably in any case.
on June 18, 2010, 01:24 pm
Definitely that is one of those calls that is up to the scorer's judgment and I do not think you can be wrong either way (PkO vs OA). Just for kicks I will ask the scorer for the Twins the next time I see him and find out what he thinks.
I finally was able to look at the scoresheets a little better just now. I love the subtotaling of pitches after each batter. That will save me some time between innings (and maybe leave me enough time to get a soda or something during the games--or do a better job of verifying the players in the field every inning so I can relay substitutions more timely).
alexeth on May 26, 2010, 04:52 pm
Here's an uploaded pdf (I think that'd be a good format, but I switched it to image) example from a little league game I scored earlier this month. I'm always interested in feedback on how others note some of these things. I'll flag a few things here in the post that I do 'different' or that I'd like to hear how others capture it.
- I used the defensive boxes to put position numbers by inning. This changes, but it's only a reference when I have the coach's plan, and I don't really use it much after.
- The column starting with #49 are tallies of the pitches (B, Sc, Sc, F, X) which I use in stats on the batters (tallied well after the game).
- The next column there's a couple of attempts to capture the numbers of the fielders out there by inning.
- In box 1 there's an FLE3 (where should that go?).
- Box 5 was weird play. Walk, but stepped off bag towards 2nd, and pitcher had already thrown to 1B who tagged the runner off the bag for the out. Not really a "CS" but... wasn't sure what to call it.
- Box 17 shows a single to 3rd baseman who threw to the catcher without error but did not catch the scoring runner, and batter advanced to 2nd on that FC.
- I added "K" to the far right of batter's tally
- By the pitchers, I added "H" to their tally
sappercs on February 24, 2011, 06:42 pm
This was very informative, good to see from experienced scorers how they do things. I learned a bunch just from this one dialog.
Thanks alexeth, your an inspiration.
Id really like to see more examples like these, perhaps some professional games. (Not that I don't love little league as much as the next guy)
I do amateur scoring of my local Colorado Springs SkySox. I almost always get someone sitting around me interested in what Im doing. One of the many reasons it is fun.
Thanks Alex too for coming up with such a fun and easy way to participate in the ballgame.
mattlasley on March 31, 2011, 09:11 pm
We're in the same town.
Pro games are easy to score! The players stay in one spot, the club tells you who is playing and usually they announce it when they change something, the players generally do what they're 'supposed' to do. There's even someone else 'officially' scoring and they put judgements up on the scoreboard. I do have some, so maybe I'll track down a scanner.
Little league you're guessing who the players are, obscured or wrong uniform numbers (especially here in Colorado's cold Spring ball with windshirts borrowed from past seasons/siblings), substitutions all over the place...
Scoring little league sharpens me so scoring pros is a relaxing and unbusied experience.
I'll have more samples later as the season gets going.
sappercs, drop me a line and we'll meet at a SkySox game, or on little league fields. I'm at hotmail and my username is mattlasley
-Matt aka alexeth
sappercs on April 1, 2011, 04:20 pm
Awesome Matt really what are the odds we are both in the Springs. We will for sure have to hook up and do some comparison at some Sky Sox games. I look forward to your advise. Got my tickets already for the opening series. Section 100, Row F (praying for no snow). If your there, please come over and say hi.
I agree Pro is far easier then little league, but my little dude is now 15 and not playing little league anymore.
Since I posted that I was directed to http://www.retrosheet.org/. I have actually sat and read through over 100 games so I'm getting pretty good at the event codes. Still I encounter some events that blow my mind, I can barely read em, so I would never have scored it correctly.
I was reviewing my book from last year and found out there is an avid scorer just 2 cubes from me. He had tons of advise, and loved my new style sheets. So I'm learning, give me a few years and Ill be the one giving advise.
Hope to see you at the game. Ill drop you an email and keep you updated on the games Im attending.
I have been scoring games for more than 50 years and have gone back and forth with traditional and Retrosheet methods. But I think your system is going to be the one I stick with.
— Philip Humbaugh, Wilmington, North Carolina
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