PB/WP/CS/SB stuff

mattlasley on March 31, 2011, 09:30 pm

Season starting, so time for a new topic...

First game Tuesday reminded me of common LL issues with passed balls, wild pitches, stolen bases and caught stealings. Probably a lot of territory here, but here's a specific situation.

Pitch gets past catcher (doesn't matter, PB or WP), runner (2nd) goes. Catcher corrals the ball and throws to 3rd.

If the runner is out, is it CS?
Another thread says "no" because he was advancing on a PB/WP not stealing, so exceptional play by the catcher got him. How is it then scored (I think the other thread said somethign like out advancing "OA"... while I'm on that, I assumed that applied more to a runner out at 2nd stretching a single... but I digress)?

If the runner is safe, is it an SB/PB/WP? If there's no play, it's obviously a PB/WP. But since there is a play, does that make it an SB?

Lately I've been granting this as an SB when the runner makes it on a close play, since it looked funny to write "WP25". Part of this is because it's LL where a ball getting past the catcher (with "short" backstops relative to older leagues, or concrete fence-bases that bounce the ball back to the catcher quickly). But, the CS rule makes this seem funny... a quick play can get the out, but not a CS, so how could a close play make a SB out of a WP/PB that cannot be a CS?

Now, with all that, if there are now _2_ runners, and one is caught... does anything change? Normally if R2 is caught at third it would be CS25 and R1 would get SB. But, if it's a PB/WP situation (and runners didn't start beforehand) is it now something else at 3rd and R1 advances on WP?

I appreciate any thoughts. While I'd love a clear rule, I'm okay with a possible 'hole' in the rules created by the extra dynamics of LL compared to older ball. This example comes from Juniors (13-14) which maximized ambiguity where leadoffs & steals are legal (compared to younger ages where the 'don't leave until it's at the plate' rule more neatly groups the WP/PBs from the SB/CS).


Alex Reisner on April 1, 2011, 01:53 am

Good question. I agree that this is just "out trying to advance" and I'd score it, for example: WP.2X3(25). This agrees with the Wikipedia article on "Stolen Base" which quotes Total Baseball (5th ed, 1997):

"The criteria for being charged with "caught stealing" was fine tuned in 1979, with a runner being credited with being caught if he is put out while trying to steal, oversliding a base (otherwise successfully stolen), or is picked off a base, and tries to advance to the next base. Runners would specifically not be credited with being caught, if the player was put out after a wild pitch or passed ball."

It's tempting to charge the runner with a stolen base, but I think it's important to show that they weren't trying to steal. You don't get credit for a stolen base on a WP or PB, so you shouldn't get credit for being caught either.

Regarding your question about two runners advancing: on a double steal, if the lead runner is caught, the trailing runner does not get credit for a steal even though he reached safely. The logic is the same as for a fielder's choice: they probably (maybe) _could_ have thrown him out but decided to do something else. So, if there's a WP and the lead runner is thrown out, the trailing runner certainly does not get credit for a steal.

mattlasley on April 1, 2011, 12:22 pm

Thanks Alex. That makes sense. I'll get over my WP25 issues ;-). Maybe I'm just too biased towards my pitchers ;-). Someone should probably review my error-rate too.
I must have purely misread the rule on the double-steal-someone-out thing. I know I scored it correctly a couple of years ago, but somehow switched to the wrong idea in the last few months, but the rule is pretty clear:
"When a double- or triple-steal is attempted and one runner is thrown out before reaching and holding the base such runner is attempting to steal, no other runner shall be credited with a stolen base."

Thanks again. I'm glad I ask these things. I may never get it all right, but...I'm getting better every season!

on August 15, 2013, 10:45 pm

Actually; I believe this is actually scored as OA (out advancing) instead of a wild pitch. A wild pitch can only be scored when there is a successful advance of all runners on a pitch.

In this case, the play should be scored:



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